Out of space on Siemens breaker panel - Is it possible to consolidate 4 Siemens QP Type 15 amp breakers?

Question

I need to install a 50 amp breaker for an EV charger in my fuse box. The problem is that the box is already full. I was wondering if I could replace 4 QP type 15 amp breakers with 1 quadplex breaker, or something else. I was thinking I might be able to replace them with a Q21515CT2 breaker.

Each 15 amp breaker takes 1 space, so if I could consolidate them somehow, I would be able to fit the 50 amp breaker.

FYI - all of the spaces where tandem breakers can be used have already been taken.

Here is a picture of my fuse box. I was thinking I could consolidate the 15 amp breakers on the top right.

Here is a the breaker I am wanting to install:

• Edit - Here is a picture of the panel label:

Answer 1

You've answered your own question:

FYI - all of the spaces where tandem breakers can be used have already been taken.

The pictures confirm this. All your tandems are in use. A quad is essentially 2 pairs of tandems. Would it physically work? Probably. But you are not allowed to do it, so if anything ever went wrong (like a fire) you would have big problems because you didn't follow directions.

If you have space on the wall next to this panel, including sufficient workspace in front to satisfy code requirements, I'd recommend installing a subpanel. Use the same brand/type of panel so that you can move circuits easily between the panels. You can install them literally side by side so you can (basically) make some big fat conduit pipes between them. Move a bunch of breakers (preferably mostly 15A and 20A circuits) to the subpanel. Install a big breaker (60A? 100A?) in the main panel to feed the subpanel using appropriate big wire. Then install the 50A breaker in some of your now empty spaces. The alternative is to install a subpanel in the garage. If a few of your existing circuits are actually garage circuits (lights, receptacles, heater, etc.) then you move a bunch of them to the garage subpanel and use a pair of spaces for a large feeder from the main panel to the subpanel. As Harper explained, there are advantages to having the EV charger fed from a nearby (i.e., in the garage) subpanel due to wire costs, and you then have much more flexibility to expand in both locations (garage because it has a new subpanel near the point of use, and the main panel because you will have freed up several spaces by moving circuits to the subpanel).

There is one other potential problem. Your main feed (200A) was likely based on the original configuration of your house. You have likely added many circuits since then, and that's before adding 50A for charging. A new load calculation would be a very good idea before doing any of this work to make sure you aren't getting yourself into a situation where you will use more power than your panel can handle (or your utility safely supply).

Answer 2

There are a lot of circuits in there! Another possibility may deserve a mention: maybe you can identify a few that could be combined, for example that primarily serve lighting which has been converted to LED and draws mere amps. You could take a pair of 15 amp circuits and with a pigtail feed them both from a single 15 A breaker. Could do likewise with a pair of 20 amp circuits fed from a single 20 A breaker. That frees up one slot. Find another pairing and you've got the two slots you needed.

Just to be clear: it's generally OK to shuffle the single-pole circuits around the panel (but don't forget to update the legend). You could pick two that are on single breakers anywhere in the panel, or two that are on tandems, or two where one is on a tandem and the other is on a single breaker. If at any point you end up with a tandem breaker that's unused, pick a circuit from a single breaker and move it to that tandem.

One would have to take special care if the combining involved any multi-wire branch circuits (could combine a third circuit with either side of the MWBC, but cannot combine the two sides of MWBC into a single breaker/pole). It appears there are none of those in your panel so this caution is just for the benefit of future readers.

Answer 3

Well if your panel could have taken them it would be a Q21515 but with all the tandems at the bottom you are out of space your panel is a 3040 30 fullsized and up to 10 tandems, your best bet at this point is a sub panel with additional spaces because you are maxed out.

Answer 4

Short answer: not that breaker, no.

Long answer: you need to contact Siemens (not a Siemens dealer, not an orange apron, Siemens. And you need to ask them the following question:

I have a Siemens CTL panel. Does Siemens now authorize use of non-CTL breakers in that panel?

The reason you need to ask is this is a rapidly changing area, as manufacturers and UL figure out what to do about the repeal of CTL limitations. I understand Eaton has gone for the jugular, got UL to approve non-CTL breakers in all legacy Eaton panels, and plans to stop making CTL breakers. Siemens may be doing the same.

However, what I would really do.

A subpanel, yes - but in the garage. This wraps up a whole bunch of problems nicely, with a bow.

• Lets you pay $2/foot for wire instead of gold-rush prices for copper (the market has gone insane).
• Brings 90A to the garage - plenty for charging two EVs. While also being able to support other loads, such as the two 120V circuits you feed out of this panel instead of the main panel.
• Provides a local disconnect. Which allows hardwiring the EVSE, which saves money on sockets and allows more total power (60A: OK).
• hardwiring also avoids a very stupid "double GFCI" situation in NEC 2020 territory.

Now how do we get two EVs on 90 amps? Good question. Share2 technology, which is safety-rated and UL approved. EV's already negotiate charge rates with the wall unit (the thing you call a "charger", actually an EVSE). With Share2, the EVSE's simply coordinate.

How do we get 90A for $2/ft? By shattering some preconceptions about aluminum. Science proved that aluminum is only bad when you attach it to terminals not rated for aluminum. Other science not related to aluminum also proved terminal screw torques are really important, even on small connections. That's what went wrong in the 70's on small branch circuit wiring. Heavy feeder has always been reliable. Heck the large lugs are made of aluminum!

So we use #2 aluminum for 90A, which happens to be in a pricing "sweet spot" due to its widespread use. Or 1/0 aluminum for 120A if you want to go deluxe.

The subpanel also provides a suitable coupler to step from aluminum to copper for the short final run to the EVSE. Most EVSE terminals are not rated for aluminum, and we won't repeat That 70's mistake.

And yes, your breaker can go in a Siemens subpanel.

For the subpanel I'd go nice and large. Spaces are cheap, and - well, I hardly need to explain to you the cost of running out of spaces because you chintzed out.

As for GFCI, the EVSE already has a superb, first-rate GFCI in it, with a special feature: a recloser. It will wait and then reset its own GFCI several times to see if the fault has cleared (which it usually does). That is important so you don't get stranded with no battery charge. A second GFCI will interfere with this, by also tripping, leaving the EVSE dead as a stone. Don't put GFCIs on GFCIs.